Article 5(d)

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Article 5(d)

Medic_One · Senior Member

What ever Rod

Justify all you want. Now why don't you go ahead a read the rest of the bylaws and let me know what else has been violated. I know do you?

Happy reading. It is a shame that this will be this first time you have actually opened them.

Paramaniac · Senior Member

To everyone,

You can ALL (short dramatic pause, eyebrows raising twice in quick succession) download a copy of SEIU's By-Laws anytime you want at www.SEIU250.org. I believe it is, in fact, your duty to see them and abide by them.

Thank you,

Rod Billings

Play with My Money · Senior Member

Well Medic One, I guess we'll find out if this is true. We can all go to jail and keep passing stinky notes to eachother. Good Grief. What a life.

Medic_One · Senior Member

Thats great you posted the link Rod. Did you need help finding it? The question is have you read them? And if so why did you violate them?

STRIFE · Senior Member

Medic One, what is your problem? Members would have not voted on this if they didin't want it! I know it is upseting that people liked the IAEP idea better then NEMSA, but NEMSA shouldn't win just because of the service agreement. This is obviously what 660 members wanted. Time to move on, hope you will see that the majority of the membership is ready too.

Medic_One · Senior Member

Nate,

Tell me again were IAEP was on the ballot? Was your ballot different than anybody else’s?

The rules are the rules Nate. Are you saying that the vote count somehow justifies violating the Bylaws? Again IAEP was not on the Ballot. There are allot of people out there that wanted 250 not IAEP and they voted for 250. They do not want IAEP so what do you say to them?

Forfend · Senior Member

As good as IAEP appears to be in their demeanor and expertise, I will not accept them to be my representative until I vote on a ballot that has a decision for all of us as members to discern IAEP as our representation.

In the meeting that the staff of IAEP held, they said that we the body still must ratify them as our representation. If we are not careful, we could end up forever divided if we, the body, do not give the final endorsement to this transition. IAEP will surely be devastated if they do not have a ratification vote of the entire body for them to represent us.

As much as I trust representative government, this vote is too important for leaders to determine on their own. Draft the By-Laws while new professional representatives are hired, set direction, ratify the IAEP, vote in leaders and establish committees. We need to prepare for the next round of negotiations.

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Forfend,

I am struggling with your post. Could you help me understand it. First, if I am understanding you correctly, you do not accpet IAEP as your union. Then, on the flipside, the very union that you do not accept, you expect a set of By-Laws from. Doesn't that mean you do accept them?

We have set, as a guideline, a deadline to establish a By-Law committee, and have the Constitution and By-Laws written within 60 days. You have to have By-Laws written before anything can be done. This is not an overnight thing, although I believe that our response of 60 days is very proactive. We have set in motion a plan to get more stewards trained, from an EMS-only point of view. We understand that negotiations start in less than a year. That is why we need everyone to indeed respect the vote that has occurred and support their union. Again, a contradiction I am having difficulty with. On one hand, you don't accept the union, but you push to move forward. SEIU won the election, and they entered a service agreement with IAEP to be our union. This was very well publicized prior to the vote. Time to jump aboard!!

Play with My Money · Senior Member

Forfend,

I agree, but timing is everything. The contract would be opened up. Another gnarly voting period when perhaps even more people will disengage. Studies have been made analyzing why we have low participation in our democracy. Apparently, when reasonable people are exposed to base, mudslinging, aggressive positions taking control, they disengage from the process.

-- Edited by Play with My Money at 22:21, 2004-09-19

Forfend · Senior Member

Paramaniac,

It would be foolish to have a phone conversation decide that IAEP is in charge. It would also be foolish if leaders live in ivory towers and make enormous decisions such as a change of affiliation without a body wide vote. You must understand that most of us had no idea that this transition was in the works. It was a shrewd move that I can respect as a good shift of tactics to motivate the members to remain AFL-CIO affiliates. The phone tree that has been posted all over both boards was not known by me or any of the people that I associate with. IAEP just sort of appeared and sounded like a good idea. The IRS once seemed like a good idea. The IRS was never ratified appropriately though that is not the subject here. I cannot accept a change to IAEP without my endorsement through my voting right. It is a simple procedure. A vote. If I never see a ballot to endorse IAEP, I cannot support IAEP or its leaders because I will lack faith and have no confidence in the new leadership.

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Forfend,

That is unfortunate, but I wll have to respect your decision. Because we are moving forward, we are going to establish our new local, we are entering negotiations with AMR in less than a year. Not to belittle your convictions, wouldn't your time be better spent supporting the folks that are going to be working hard to get you the best deal they can.

Rod

Forfend · Senior Member

Just let the members vote or you might see NEMSA here next year. Not a threat, just a reality.

snake911 · Veteran Member

That is a reality that I actually agree with. I voted for 250/IAEP but if we start getting jerked around I think we might see a renewed interest in NEMSA. We have all realized that we dont have to sit idley by and accept a union that does not represent us or our interests. We have learned that we can invoke change. And hopefully the leaders of all unions interested in us know that we can invoke change. Maybe the greatest good that will come out of all this is the increased accountability that our union, no matter who they are, will have to have for thier members. No more backroom deals, no more secrets, and no more deception. There are too many of us watching.

Play with My Money · Senior Member

Everyone just voted. The NLRB will be reviewing objections. In a year, people can vote for NEMSA if they want. Do you want to carry on the chaos? It can be entertaining, but not wise for a labor organization employed by a rather aggressive employer. What's another option to go forward? Plan a better time for actual certification of IAEP. If this is truly a moral conflict for you, would another means of affirmation suffice that wouldn't pull us into a battle?

Besides, nothing in this arena can happen quickly if it involves the NLRB.

Forfend · Senior Member

Everybody just voted for 250 or neither or NEMSA. I think that it is great that IAEP came to town and will focus on EMS for EMS. The ballot never had IAEP. Do I as a member in good standing, that has paid dues, that did not petition or campaign to seceed, that never removed or blocked information and a member that has never needed a steward to protect my job not have a say in what association or union will represent me? I think that this stinks and I want a vote to ratify 250 giving over the reigns to IAEP. This is not too much to ask. I think that you folks are so busy fighting with each other that you do not understand the reason why you are fighting. I as a member of my union, want a voice and I want my representatives to do their homework and handle routine issues. When a big decision arrives such as dues going up or down, I should have a vote on that subject. IAEP claims my dues are going down. I want to vote.

Play with My Money · Senior Member

So when you voted, you did not understand that you were affirming the service agreement with IAEP by voting 250?

Forfend · Senior Member

I do not know what the service agreement is. Is it subcontracting? Anyways, difficult to navigate ballots lead to failure. Kind of like "No to the recall Yes for Bustamonte" was too confusing. Or Florida. Votes and ballots need to be simple, down to Yes or No without excessive fall out. That may be naive on my part, but I do not see a problem with having a vote to say that our name is now IAEP. So, no, I have no idea what I really voted on other than I voted for NEMSA or Neither or 250. That was on the ballot. The mailers, phone calls and debate did not do much to inform me.

-- Edited by Forfend at 23:57, 2004-09-19

Medic_One · Senior Member

quote:
Originally posted by: snake911
"That is a reality that I actually agree with. I voted for 250/IAEP but if we start getting jerked around I think we might see a renewed interest in NEMSA. We have all realized that we dont have to sit idley by and accept a union that does not represent us or our interests. We have learned that we can invoke change. And hopefully the leaders of all unions interested in us know that we can invoke change. Maybe the greatest good that will come out of all this is the increased accountability that our union, no matter who they are, will have to have for thier members. No more backroom deals, no more secrets, and no more deception. There are too many of us watching."

Brad,

How can you state what you have stated and then support IAEP? The very situation that we are in right now was hatched in a back room, secret from 16 counties and highly deceptive. Are you saying that it's ok this once, but it better not happen again? How many times will it be ok? Don't you see they are playing us like fools. They are saying "look we will do this thing, make these people feel important, tell them that they can run it, they will complain a little, but in the end we will get what we want". Do you think that these career big labor hacks actually care about you or me or anything but the machine? If they did then they would have "saved" San Mateo. Were IAEP then? Brad and everyone stop and think. What was the first thing that came from Bill Bower on this board? It was COPE. It was not lets get AMR or lets build unity it was lets get more money for SEIU's political machine. I am telling you we are heading in the wrong direction, and making concessions on this back room service agreement is like a pig making a deal with a sausage maker.

STRIFE · Senior Member

Medic one,
You should start signing your name if you want us to actually take you seriously and if you want us to believe you are no longer "stabbing" your coworkers out in the valley in the back.. You know what I'm talking about, I was at the Stockton meeting, and I heard everything you said.....You have had your share of lying, Ive seen it first hand, lets play a clean game now.

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Forfend,

There was a vote, it was highly publicized by both sides. The service agreement was in place and also highly publicized. You had your opportunity to vote and have your say, along with everyone else. IAEP was voted in by your peers. That vote is over. The only votes coming down the line are for the establishment of IAEP.

You yourself said it, you cannot accept IAEP without a vote. There was a vote. You had your opportunity to vote NEMSA (I'm getting the feeling that this is exactly what you did). NEMSA lost. End of story.

It is your prerogative not to accept IAEP. Get in line with the rest of the NEMSA die-hards that will have no say in their own future.

Medic_One · Senior Member

Oh Rodney. Hellooooo Rodney are you there Rodney?

I guess you were too busy reading the 250 bylaws for the first time or you had to ask Bill for permission to speak, but just so you know: 250/IAEP did not win. You see if you would have asked Bill he would have told you that the law requires that one has to have a majority in order to win and Local 250 did not and does not have that Majority and therefore has not won. If that was the case then your buddy Bill would not be in a run off for the Stockton city council race in November there would he. Rod there is a reason why Bill doesn't let you speak much you should stick to that.

Medic_One · Senior Member

quote:
Originally posted by: STRIFE
"Medic one, You should start signing your name if you want us to actually take you seriously and if you want us to believe you are no longer "stabbing" your coworkers out in the valley in the back.. You know what I'm talking about, I was at the Stockton meeting, and I heard everything you said.....You have had your share of lying, Ive seen it first hand, lets play a clean game now."

Hey Nate I thought you were done with me. What happened there pal no ability to back up what you say? Sounds like a good IAEP fit to me. Oh and what s the matter Nate the fact that you stabbed Brooks in the back getting to you? Come up with something original like wanting to raise our dues right off the bat. Good thinking smart guy.

Forfend · Senior Member

Paramaniac,

A Jedi, you will never be.

The "banter" that I have engaged in; even though I only wanted to be part of a creative solution and progressive think tank, was not sour grapes over NEMSA. The NEMSA, neither, 250 vote has been done and awaiting official certification from the NLRB.

The IAEP being the reps for us instead of 250 was a telephone party. It does not rate as representative government.

Leaders from 250 and IAEP made an agreement on how things would be run. That is wonderful that they could come up with a win-win solution.

The general body needs to vote on this matter now. Well, let me correct myself. Soon. After a little research into the matter I found out that in order for IAEP to be our exclusive agent, AMR would have to sign off on our contract changing the name from 250 to IAEP. So it appears that we are going to be 250 for the duration of our contract.

I understand that IAEP and 250 have come to this agreement that appears to be like subcontracting. IAEP claims to have charge of the dues structure and management of our organization for the duration of our contract.

I have been trying to make it clear that if IAEP is going to be our bargaining agent, it needs to be done in a legitimate election of the general body. It is obvious that this year is not a good time to engage in that election. It would be prudent to wait until 2006.

So, please do not insult me with speculation on how I may have voted. I just want the most extreme accountability so that we do not have another secession.

snake911 · Veteran Member

Hey... whoever you are?!

I was agreeing with the fact that if the IAEP doesnt make an effort to get everyone involved in the process of building this union (something I think they are putting great effort into) then we will see a renewed interest in the whole NEMSA thing. I might not agree with the way that 250 put into effect the service agreement but are you actually stating you wanted 250 to remain your reps? would you be happier if they had stayed on? of course not, thats why you wanted NEMSA. I think it would be safe to say that any NEMSA supporter was looking to get away from 250. Its strange that now the only people who thought 250 was a great and noble union are the same people who started this decert in the first place. 250 might not have followed the best and most ethical plan to get us to 250 (whether they violated out lylaws is up to interpretation) but they found us a better rep group. The only reason you NEMSA people are complaining is because you know you would have beat 250. Nobody wanted them (or very few people wanted them) but with a sevice agreement with IAEP suddenly support for NEMSA started to dwindle because we had a better option. NEMSA couldnt compete with the IAEP and therefore NEMSA folks all of a sudden want 250 back. Would you have voted against the service agreement had you been involved just to make our reps weaker? sound like a great plan of years of faithful service and generous leadership.

To repeat myself (Im bad vinyl) the greatest good from all of this is that anyone who represents us is going to have a huge responsiblity in thier accountability to the members. Everyone is paying very close attention to how things are handled. I believe the IAEP is up to the challenge of proving themselves to skeptical and highly critical work force. Pay close attention during the next 6-12 months. Bring up your concerns. If your concerns arent answered to your satisfaction then maybe you will find increasing support for NEMSA. But if the IAEP can represent us to our satisfaction there is no longer any need to be angry. We stay involved and our union will respond. If we drop out then they start making whatever decisions make the most sense to them. So play a part in the development of this union (whoever you are) and see if your concerns are addressed. Its the squeeky wheel analogy again.

Brad

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Forfend,

Good for both of us I don't aspire to be a Jedi.

Nobody insulted you. You took it that way.

Again, for the final time, there was already a vote. It was put out to all the members, you being included. You knew SEIU entered into a service agreement with IAEP. You had the opportunity to have your voice in the matter. It is clear, from your own verbiage, that you are not impressed with this agreement. You, along with the rest of the members, had the chance to vote SEIU/IAEP out. As fate has it, IAEP was voted in. I can tell you, without any doubt whatsoever, there will be no further voting as far as the decision to enter a service agreement. It has been decided already by the members. It is IAEP who will be our representative force.

If you want "extreme" accountability, then identify yourself, and start coming to IAEP meetings and take part in your own future. Sorry, but you are not engaging in any kind of think tank ideas when all you can do is talk about yet another vote before the "general body". Think tank ideas would include how to progress and improve upon our union. All you keep doing is wanting to take steps back. So, let's end the suspense. I voted for IAEP, who did you vote for? If you did vote for IAEP, which I speculate you did not, why would you now be asking for a vote on something you presumably agreed to in the first place by voting it in?

Thank you,

Rod Billings, Shop Steward, AMR CoCo Operations

Forfend · Senior Member

Paramaniac,

Union members that discuss motive rather than concept (individual basis) are insulting a member and the rules of order in the conduct of how we have our discourse. Instructing me to dwell with die-hard NEMSA supporters is insulting.

Yes there was a vote and it is almost settled. 250 wins.

IAEP has been a management level agreement and a phone party agreement. It lacks democratic credibility. In my previous statement on this thread, I made the statement that it would be prudent to hold off on the IAEP vs 250 vote until the year 2006. This is a fair manner to handle this situation. If, IAEP does not hold a general body vote for the members to determine if IAEP will be the exclusive bargaining agent, we will have another secession.

As for identification, I have a right to being safely anonymous. Especially for the decisions I make when voting. I see that you voted for 250 which has subcontracted services to IAEP. That is not meant as insulting the 250/IAEP agreement. I actually felt that the agreement was a brilliant tactic to win the election and keep our members affiliates of the AFL-CIO. Article XX and XXI are of extreme importance to us.

As for a think tank, I have yet to see any thread remain on task and get a think tank going. Everytime a good idea starts, somebody comes along and chases the subject off track. That would include myself. (my bad) Didn't understand all of the ramifications of forcing the vote for IAEP to be our exclusive bargaining agent. Very similar to running off with NEMSA. I just believe that we need to have a solid foundation to build upon. Subcontracting is hardly a solid foundation. Empires built on hay and stubble burn fast.

Snake 911,

I like to be anonymous, it keeps the predetermined reputation from interfering with credibility and allows a person to have their words heard without prejudice.

I am just an average AMR employee that has been around for a few years. I have stayed out of trouble and done my best to not cause problems. I had no anger towards 250. They took my money and that was that. I used to work in another line of work that did not have a union contract and job protection. That was terrible.

Secession came along and everything started to get exciting. Then it got weird. Then it got nasty. Now we have to move on. I just think that if we are going to move on, do it right so that we don't have to see this ever again.

Now, as for you calling me a NEMSA person, you too will not be admitted to Jedi school.

STRIFE · Senior Member

Forfend,
I understand your questions regarding the service agreement, and your concerns are valid. The last few months were very difficult. When the IAEP move was presented to us, many of us did voice our opinion of giving it the go ahead. If we had all been against it, it wouldn't of happened. The last 6 months have created quite a bit of division. Many shop stewards who were NEMSA supporters quit opening their mail from L250, quite taking phone calls from them, and have refused to participate in meetings about issues concerning our health benefits. I'll give you an example. Last may or so, we held a meeting with ALL stewards regarding an approval to move to pacificare. The reasons were because our current health net benefits were to expire in july. It was obvious that whatever we wanted to do, we needed to come to a decision, and at this particular meeting, AMR was there so we could let communicate with them about rates and numbers. Whether you were going to support NEMSA, or 250, it was imortant to be at this meeting, and to participate. It is our duty as stewards to make sure our co-workers have decent health benefits, at reasonable rates. Anywas, the meeting was clearly divided by 250 supporters, and then NEMSA supporters. in the middle of the meeting, some of the NEMSA supporters stood up, and stated that we should all just walk out, and not give 250 the time of day. There was much chaos and confusion, and this all occured in front of AMR management! It was crazy! This was one of the first times that I took a step back from NEMSA. Even my chief shop steward (who is pro nemsa) agreed that this concerned him. These people were so intent on seeing 250 get screwed that they were willing to risk our benefits, just to prove a point at a meeting! This is just an example of how NEMSA supporters have really distanced themselves from keeping open communication with the rest of us. The Move to the IAEP was agreed upon by many stewards, not all, but many. This was a very difficult time, but we felt it was the best move. I hope we can all jump on board and make the most of it.
-nate

Paramaniac · Senior Member

<laffin> Okay okay Forfend. You got me laughin' with the Jedi bit. It's pretty damned funny!

Taking a step back, I can see why you would be insulted with the die-hard NEMSA statement I made. I apologize for that, I guess I wouldn't want to be called that either. But, in my defense, I have been trying to explain to you that there was a vote. We are just trying to move things forward here.

For what it is worth, credibility goes hand in hand with identity of the person speaking. It is your prerogative to be anonymous, however it is clear you are well spoken and you should be proud and open about your statements( and know a lot about Star Wars training programs; maybe we could incorporate that into our steward training.<s>)

Thanks,

Rod (paramaniac is just my handle!)

snake911 · Veteran Member

To ForFend,

My letter addressed to "whoever you are" was a response to medic one not to you. Sorry for the confusion. The way these things are time stamped put it in under yours but I was in no way trying to insult you for being annonymous or call you a NEMSA person. It was all in response to the last thing medic one sent to me. I have only seen you be productive and bring alot of good thoughts and ideas to the table. If you want to give them annonymously thats great! When others insult me and make irrational claims about the goings on in my county then they are doing themselves a disservice by remaining annonymous.

And could you reconsider the jedi school invite seeing as how I wasnt making judgements about you? cause I would like to go. And Star Wars is on DVD today so I may not be posting for a few days. Christmas came early for me this year!!! I cant wait for the LOTR box set.

Brad