Can one of you pro IAEP people explain to me how this is going to work. IAEP says everyone’s dues are going down, that was one of their campaign promises. $8.20 a week for full-time employees and $6.20 a week for part-time employees. Or $32.80 a month for full-time and $24.80 a month part-time. Ok, lets say there are 2,400 employees in No.Cal. And 40% of them are part-time That’s 1440 full-time-employees and 960 part-time employees ( these are not the actual numbers but they are close enough for this argument) So IAEP will collect 1440 x $32.80 and 960 x $24.80 for a total of $71,040 per month or $852,480 per year in our dues. Of that amount they are going to give back to us the local $3.00 per member per month. That works out to $7,200 per month or $86,400 per year. They get $852,480 of our dues dollars per year and they give us back $86,400 dollars to run our local. You get 10% of the money you pay the union to pay for your local, Wow, how generous of them.
I think now you can see why I call this an IAEP money making Scheme.
Now, when we were under L250 we paid them 1.2 million per year ($1,200,000) and they said we ran in the red all the time....They even cut paying for lost time on the next contract negotiation, because they said they could not afford it, as well as many other things that where cut back....If they couldn’t do it with a 1.2 million how are you suppose to run this new local on $86,400.
IAEP expects the local to pay for everything it wants itself, 50% of arbitrations, lost time for local officials , pagers, cell phones, flyers, gas to travel from county to county etc, etc, etc.; all the things that are needed to make a local work....How is this local suppose to serve 2400 people in 19 counties on $86,400 per year???? .....Just think about having to pay the salary for a step 10 medic for a day or a week for lost time and how about paying 50% of 1 arbitration that costs $10,000....You are going to go broke quick....Remember you only get $7,200 a month and NAGE is not going to advance you any money or give you any extra. I’ve even heard they are very slow paying the money that they already owe the local from dues. I’ve found that out by talking to locals down south, NAGE will not bail you out...The money you get is all you get. That is why other IAEP locals tell me stories of how the cell phones get turned off all the time and that their local is always flat broke. If you doubt me, contact local 187 in LA county and ask them. How are you going to gear up to battle AMR for the next contract when your are flat broke and can’t afford to pay people lost time....Everyone is just suppose to use all their PTO, cancel vacations with their families, pay for their own gas, and tell their families sorry for the financial hardship even though they pay dues to their union every month. How many good people are going to be able to continue making sacrifices in order to make this local work? Is it fair to them to continually ask them to do it? Doesn’t that seem wrong to any of you? That sure is not my idea of a union... The IAEP system does not work, It has not worked for any IAEP local I’ve found yet.....You need to stand up now and get away from them before its too late.
Also, I’ve already heard suggestions on this forum to raise dues.....People voted for you under the promise of lower dues not knowing what they were getting themselves into....More of the sugar coated turd IAEP sold them in their 2 week blitz. You are not going to raise peoples dues to supplement IAEP’s poor system, I guarantee you a fight on that issue.
If L250 couldn’t do it on $1.2 mil a year, what makes you think you can on $86k....This is why some of us can’t stomach a system we know is going to fail.
I didn't vote and as you can see I have nothing to do right now so I'm cruising around the website and just read your posting.I like IAEP because they are a big union with lots of money for us, but now you guys say that there is not going to be a lot of money for us to do all this legal stuff that we need, so, once again, I'm confused. Also, I thought that we would get a full retirement from IAEP, that's what they told me when they came to Sacramento, that's why I like them. But know it seems that we are not going to have a lot of money??? See ya out there:)
Money is always tight. That is one of the reasons that I wanted to stay with SEIU Local 250, "the largest healthcare union in the country". SEIU had reserves and infinite amounts of money that kept management at bay. Now we are facing budget cuts with our union because we will be an EMS based union. Low pay, low dues, management will run amuck. It would have been worse with a non-affiliate organization that would not have any reserves. At least most of the overhead costs are covered by the IAEP. Our dues don't have to cover an unknown amount of high salaries with bene's. Our dues don't have to cover attorney fees. Our political action will be with politicians, not philanthropists. Unfortunately, with IAEP, we will not have a luau.
I hope people are now seeing the folly in jumping in with only two weeks of a getting to know you from these guys. NEMSA had over 7 months and people are still saying they don't know them. How then is it that people had a chance to know all there is to know about IAEP.
so, if we stayed with local 250 we would have had more money, and with IAEP we won't have as much? So are we with a smaller union then?I kinda thought that they are all big. Are you saying we should go back with local250? can we do that? I don't want to be with a smaller union:(, also, I thought that alot of people didn't like local250, that's why everybody voted for IAEP...ok, this is so complicated, but thanks for writing me back anyways:)
In an ugly decertification campaign, its a wild ride. Who knows what you'll end up with. IAEP has a track record that reflects 12 years of success and failures, strong affiliations such as the AFL-CIO, experienced negotiators, attorneys on staff, and was organized without a decertification.
To answer your question which is obviously baited in nature, leaving SEIU Local 250 dropped our numbers significantly. We were in the largest healthcare union in the country which has political clout on all levels of government and financial resources enough to have bargaining power to negotiate rather than arbitrate. We will see what 11,000 IAEP members are capable of doing to be effective in the workplace.
As for people not liking 250, each to his own opinion and way. Since EMS personnel is generally arrogant, aloof and non-conformist, we naturally wanted an organization that represents and focuses on our interests.
Erin et all, You are not going with an EMS only union in IAEP. You are going with NAGE a division of SEIU. NAGE has said it themselves; IAEP is a division of NAGE....Read their by-laws....There is nothing EMS only about them....Its all just a name game......Oh and Erin if you had gone with NEMSA you would have paid the same dues as you did to 250. Only you would have got to keep the 1.2 mil because NEMSA is non-profit and cant make a profit.....They have to spend all the money they collect in dues on services for the members or refund it....Even after saleries and overhead for the union you would have had much more bang for your buck.....With NEMSA would have gotten all of your dues money not just 10% of it. The thing that made 250 broke was the affilation fees it had to pay....NEMSA has no affilation fees. You get to use All of your money. Oh and you said the money would go toward someones expensive salary. Not true, The executive board of NEMSA made up of members just like you sets the salaries.....Do you get a vote on Sal Rosselli's or Dave Holway's Salary.
Ok, 11,000 sounds pretty big to me:) I didn't know it was that many people:) cool:), as I am reading things here, who is the "NLRB" and do they decide who won the vote? I thought that IAEP won the vote or do I not get something here?( which problably is the case:( ) also I am reading that there is going to be another vote??? why is that??? see ya out there:):):)
The 250 executive board decides the Salary of Sal just as NEMSA would have had salaries decided by their board. The board, not the general membership.
NEMSA not having affiliate fees would have meant that the money stayed with NEMSA only. The money does not get refunded to members though. The money goes towards developing infrastructure and growth of the organization.
11,000 is big, but not compared to 100,000.
-- Edited by Play with My Money at 21:07, 2004-10-01
SEIU Local 250 won the vote. IAEP has entered into a service agreement with SEIU Local 250. It is a form of sub-contracting, IAEP will oversee the needs of the members and guard the AMR core agreement with SEIU Local 250.
As for who has officially won, the NLRB will certify the results someday.
Ok, i'm sorry if I am ticking people off with all my stupid questions.There is just so much I don't understand.Most of the people who write on this messageboard have probably been involved in this whole union thing for a long time.A lot of us new people at AMR don't really know what's really going on.All I wanted to do was to find out more, because I feel that you know a lot more about all of this. So please bear with us new employees!!! we may not know a lot but we also want to know what's going on.Like I don't understand when you say that NLRB has to "certify" the vote, even though IAEP won the vote.Also, I talked to some people and they say that IAEP was not on the ballot but local250 was, but I guess there is this contract between the two.But then my friends say that they did not vote for IAEP before they voted for local250. A lot of people here voted for nemsa,and they say that there should have been a vote on this whole IAEP thing.
quote: Originally posted by: Play with My Money "Yes, Money is always tight. That is one of the reasons that I wanted to stay with SEIU Local 250, "the largest healthcare union in the country". SEIU had reserves and infinite amounts of money that kept management at bay. Now we are facing budget cuts with our union because we will be an EMS based union. Low pay, low dues, management will run amuck. It would have been worse with a non-affiliate organization that would not have any reserves. At least most of the overhead costs are covered by the IAEP. Our dues don't have to cover an unknown amount of high salaries with bene's. Our dues don't have to cover attorney fees. Our political action will be with politicians, not philanthropists. Unfortunately, with IAEP, we will not have a luau."
What exactly are you talking about Erin? Of course our dues will go to over head and salaries. Where do you think Holloway gets his Salary? If you get 3.00 back were do you think the rest goes? As for the Salary, Holloway makes $220,000 a year + perks + insurance + pension. Were do you think that comes from? It comes from us. I don't think that Torren was going to draw that kind of money. Erin you are making NEMSA's argument. Why should we pay dues for a self service union like IAEP? At least with 250 they were full service. Do you intend to drive on your own dime on your day off to Tulare to check on the members? This structure is set up to fail and has already done so everywhere that IAEP is.
But therein lies the problem. Who ever asked L250 to subcontract with IAEP in the first place? Dan Martin and Sal Roselli did that's who. And it was done to try and take away one of NEMSA's selling points. And on the surface it did and L250 conned the lesser educated members into thinking they were getting a better deal. But saying you're EMS by having a name like IAEP and structuring an EMS union like NEMSA are two entirely different animals. EMS-only means EMS ONLY! Run by, membership, structure, direction, proper use of our money...all run by EMS people for EMS people. At 1.2 million dollars/yr., it wouldn't be so bad to tighten the belt for the first year or two while the new ship was launched! But it would at least be an EMS ship! With a EMS crew running it (and not into the ground).
And since when is subcontracting such a wonderfull way to deal with your problems? We negotiated 5 sections of our contract to prevent that very thing from AMR! I guess we should have thrown in acouple of extra ones for L250 while we were at it. I can't wait until SEIU gets my letter asking them if this is what happens all the time in their organization and what benefit comes from it? I suspect they will have that same "deer in the headlights" look that I saw on our President the other night at the debate.
But lets get one thing straight! The NEMSA move was a straight up move and everyone had the right to agree or disagree. The same can not be said for the IAEP political manuver. (or the SEIU Healthcare Trust scheme either for that matter)(or the vote to join the "core" last time that kept Sac Valley for standing up for our rights instead of getting outvoted by smaller turnouts of smaller counties) It is illegal for unions to consolidate "locals" without a vote and telling the membership what it might mean! And that is just what SEIU did during the last "core" contract. A clever little plan to consolidate power and reduce workload that will more than likely be corrected in out next contract. When 75%-90% of my county participates in the voteing process, getting a good contract will be real easy! Especially when we just signed 10 year service contracts with our counties.
You have repeatedly stated how people are stupidly following 250 "blindly." Yet you voted for 250. Since the vote, many of us have decided to support the whole IAEP/250 thing and try to get it off on the right foot, because after all, it is our future. We can sit on our hands and do nothing, or attempt to be active and get things rolling in the right direction. During this time period, you have elected to pull back your support of 250 winning. So therefore, that means if someone voted for 250, they werent following blindly up until then, because after all,YOU voted 250. Yet because we now choose to support what we voted for, we are now "following blindly?" Can you explain that rationale for me.
lets recap:
Point A) Voting for 250 was NOT "following blindly", because after all, Vernon states he voted for 250.
Point B) By supporting the local we voted for (we knew about the 250/IAEP agreement before the vote), we ARE "following blindly."
There ya have it peopole, according to the Vern school of thinking, you are an idiot if you support what you voted for! Stupid me, what was I thinking!!!
EMS only (segregation comes to mind) representation. Are 11,000 members enough to justify no affiliation with larger organizations? Could less than 2,500 members have really survived in a lifeboat? This is the really real world, not an organizing fantasy. I think some of us have been up playing SIMS or the stock market way too late into the night and we may need a little nap.
IAEP has not failed everywhere. If they had failed, they would be gone. Unless all they are doing is complaining about how they could have been a contender.
Michelle, I have followed your track and all that I can say is that there is no such thing as a stupid question. Just stupid people.
Vernon, your last post on this thread was pathetic. If you want to rip somebody, be brief. I always prefer one liners.
Kevin, someday everything will be alright.
Old Rhino, if IAEP won't work financially then we will all eat crow.
Fab Five, where are you tonight? There are a lot of issues here that need resolve.
Of coarse IAEP has failed everywhere. Talk to their members they hate them. As to them not being here if they are failures: well there in lies a little union lesson for you friend- The union world is like The Hotel California: You can check out but you can never leave.
I have spoken to, partied with, continue to speak to people from areas that are represented by IAEP. Everybody has the same concerns. Everybody also has the same jealousy that we have. You know, why is the police union and fire union so neat and nifty? type of questions. We as a profession are young. Our union activity is young. I have met police and fire union presidents that have been presidents longer than EMS has been around.
As for people hating IAEP, the percentage is about as low as anything else. If you want to measure ignorance, it is rampant and growing.
For every 10 people who have a bad opinoin of IAEP, you will find just as many that like them. It is a very ignorant comment of Vernon to state IAEP has failed everywhere. He is merely reading quotes that support his cause, and ignoring the ones that dont.
Im waiting for him to call one of us a "doodie head" or say "My dad can beat up your dad."
The reason why fire and police are strong is because they are part of their own exclusive unions and associations. They don't pretend to be something they are not like an EMS only union when in fact they are hodge podge mix of everything.
EMS needs its own EMS exclusive union. I know this is against what I voted, but it has become abundantly clear that EMS only is what is needed and IAEP, nor 250 is EMS only.
And my Dad can't beat up anybody, but my mom can beat up your dad.
Vernon, please give me examples now of what we can do in NEMSA, that we cannot with IAEP ok? and be specific, we need to know. And this doesn't include promising all the stewards who got petitions passed for NEMSA paying jobs and caddilacs.
sorry for jumping in a little late.. I worked last night and missed all the fun... darn it!
I just have a few questions for those that insist on the divide 'em and demoralize 'em tactic.. ie.the old rhino and MO and Vern.....
if IAEP wasn't financially able to survive.. why haven't they gone under before now? They've been representing EMS workers since 1992, which is..... a lot longer then NEMSA, obviously. They are willing to give you the financial projection of how and where they will and do spend the dues money.. something NEMSA has declined to do on a number of occasions. The fact that they are growing, only means that now there are more resources and clout to move forward with... how does growth = failure?
Also... IAEP... it does stand for International Association of EMT's and Paramedics.. I"m really getting tired of writing that since it's a well know fact what IAEP stands for.. but some seem to foget that it is an EMS only union. Proof? Do they represent anything other than EMS worker? No. All the members are EMT's and Paramedics, and for the most part, the national and local representatives are currently lisence holding PM's and EMT's or were in the not so distant past. The membership is made up entirely of EMS workers.. how is that not an EMS only Union?Are they a branch of the NAGE?Yes.. Does NAGE dictact what, where, how, when, etc., the IAEP govern's itself? No. Does NAGE have other branches that work in association of them? Yes. Do those other branches have anything to do with IAEP, how it is governed, how they get the job done, the contracts in place, the votes, etc.? No. IAEP is also affiliated with SEIU. Does SEIU dictate what, when, how, when the IAEP govern's itself, does buisness, etc? No. Why does IAEP have an affiliation at all with SEIU? because they wanted the protection of the AFL-CIO, and in order to do that, they had to affiliate with a union that already was protected by the AFL-CIO. Why did IAEP choose SEIU? because it is a healthcare union, and EMS is in healthcare, and an affliation with a healthcare union makes sense... they have an understanding that, different though all the branches of healthcare are, they rely on eachother, are all key working parts to making healthcare work, and can work together to accomplish their goals. Strength in numbers...Why didn't IAEP affiliate with AFL-CIO by themselves and bypass the SEIU? Because they can't. AFL-CIO, from my understanding, only allows so many unions to directly attach to them, and there wasn't any room at the time..... back in 1992. Can IAEP get the affiliation with the AFL-CIO by themselves now if they wanted to... I don't know, but I don't see how not working along side the largest healthcare union in the country is a bad thing. They are sister unions and, indeed, do talk back and forth, assist each other, and back eachother up when it gets dirty. Sister unions don't mean that one union "rules" another so to speak. It means that they work together like the family that they are and abid by the house rules...What's wrong with that?
Also.. the idea that the IAEP expects the locals to pay for everything by themselves? Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.. As I have stated before.. I have worked under IAEP in the past as a memeber... so I'm speaking from experience here. The dues that you pay go into the pool of money that is accumulated by all the members of the IAEP. That money is used for arbitrations, grienvences, lawyers, paying the national reps so they can do the full job of representing you instead of having it be a part time job, so on and so forth. Of the dues money that you pay each month... $3 per a full time employee comes back into the local to do with as they please, not pay for what their dues pay for. The $3 per employee money can be used for scholarships, barbques, supporting a local politician, whatever the local decides is best for them. But the dues we pay should only go to our local you may say.. that would not behoove anyone in the local.. that's a lot of money, but not enough for all the crap that AMR likes to toss out there and needs to go higher up. By pooling the money, it goes a lot farther and gets a lot more done for a lot more people. True, a protion of the dues that you help pay could possibly help pay for an IAEP members arbitration in.... say... Texas, but the money that the employee's paying into the pool as their own dues has high potential of coming back to assisting you and your local should the need arise. That's the beauty of working together, together goals are accomplished and obsticles overcome, and the power and back up is there to get you through the ugly times.
"That is why other IAEP locals tell me stories of how the cell phones get turned off all the time and that their local is always flat broke." I just talked to the President of Local 187... yesterday as a matter of fact, and he said nothing of this statement being true. If you have proof of the UNION not paying their UNION cell phone bills, prove it. I find a statement like that hard to believe otherwise. Show me the bills and the notification of the union cell phone being turned off because the union bill has not been paid.. and I'll believe you then.. but I won't believe you on hearsay. If the people of whom you say are complaining because they don't pay their own personal cell phone bills because they feel that the union should be paying for them..... I can't agrue if people don't want to pay their own bills. Why should IAEP pay for someone to talk to their friend who lives in Colorado for an hour on their personal cell phone... I'm sure that if they gave the IAEP an itemized document showing them the calls that they've made on behalf of the union, pretaining to union buisness.. then yes IAEP should be paying for those calls.... ONLY. Not the whole of their personal cell phone bills.
As I've said before, there is never going to be a situation where 100% of the people involved are going to like 100% of everything.. there's even people who don't like Disneyland.. if you can believe THAT.. my Dad's one of them. So to say that you've talked to people who don't like their union.. I have no doubt that you have....But since this is a democratic nation, majority rules, and the majority of the IAEP members like their union.. that's why it's still in place. The majority of the people did not like SEIU.... and they are no longer in place... although their contract in still in place being effected by IAEP until that contract runs out and is renegotiated under the IAEP.. that's what the people wanted, to keep their contract but move forward with an EMS only union. Also, the majority of the people didn't want NEMSA.. so they don't even exist, except in a few small pockets with a membership of 80, which is good for them! I don't know why they are consentrating all this effort into a bargaining unit that doesn't even want them.. they should be consentrating on their own members.. but.. I'm getting off track here... apologies.....
I hope this clears up some of the issues and concerns that have been posed under this topic. I'm sure I missed some of the issues since this is a long post and I wasn't available to banter last night <errrr>, so... apologies again! Have a great day and continue with the healing process and getting this union off the ground and moving. It's up to the members to make it what they want. Don't be discouraged by the few that continue to attempt to keep the NEMSA game playing and belittlement alive, and mooooooooooooooooooove oooooooooonnnnnnn.................
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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10
Going back to Aaron's original post, if you can't stomach it, then why do you continually log on here? Why all the calculations? Didn't we already do all this before the vote?
So, how is NEMSA looking financially right this very second? Let's see you open up your books, and we'll find out how deep NEMSA is in the red. We know how many members you have Aaron - it falls astronomically short of being a healthy organization.
Better start thinking how you are going to carry your grievances in San Mateo on to an arbitrator, given the fact you advertised that your lawyer, at $225/hour, will be handling this. You guys are either driving breakneck speed at, or are already in financial destitution.
Rod there you go again, taking a real problem situation from a member and turning into a NEMSA slam. Will your visceral hatred for NEMSA never end? Answer the questions about IAEP Rod. Quit dodging the real issues. Let NEMSA deal with NEMSA. You have taken the leadership of IAEP on yourself so now respond with real answers not empty distracting NEMSA slams because you have no clue.
Wow....I am agreeing twice in the same week with Old Rhino......Hmmmmm........
Anyhow I have posted this before...........As Old Rhino has clearly pointed out, $32.80 is truly not enough to fund our local with only $3.00 going back to the local. I have a solution. My dues are currently about $46.00 a month and I assume others out there have dues higher than $32.80 a month. I propose that our dues should stay the same with all excess going to the local.
Heck, NEMSA proposed something like $55.00 a month at one time........
And let's elect Old Rhino to be our Treasurer........................
You're right... $32 a month is not enough to support a local. Please read my above post for an explaination on how the money really works. You'll see how $32 goes a long way and gets the job done... by working together I might add, something some people can't fathom, let alone do around here.
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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10
Let NEMSA deal with NEMSA and IAEP deal with IAEP. The relationship is symbiotic. IAEP and NEMSA are competitors. Two visions, same market.
What people are going to have to decide is if they want to be represented by an organization that is union affiliated or an association that stands alone.
Have you ever met a person that lives alone, away from society? They are not the most sane people. That is why they are not affiliated with society. NEMSA supporters have continously shown that they suffer from some serious anti-social behaviors. This is not good for our profession.
IAEP, I've never seen them exhibit disdain for humanity the way that NEMSA leaders and supporters have on these web pages.
