Financially IAEP won't work II

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

Financially IAEP won't work II

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

Yes, I’ve re-posted my last post, Because it is obvious that some members tried to intentionally bury it.

Forfend · Senior Member

I like this post. This is exactly the type of dialogue that needs to take place. How will IAEP function on such minimal money funding our group of malcontents that push towards arbitration so agressively? I am not much of a numbers person, but it seems to me that 11,000 people paying dues is a lot less money available to win important fights than 100,000 people paying dues. All that goes through my head when I think about money is "what will become of us?"

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Again Aaron, obviously you have no intention of letting the members make up their own minds. They voted, you don't like the turn-out, so you have no intention of honoring their decision.

Let's see how NEMSA is doing financially Aaron. Why won't you answer that question Aaron. You want everyone to support your union, which needs to prove its stability. Out with it, how's it going over there? Let's see your financial situation. You won't, because it will clearly show the ruins you're in.

I've got another question for you Aaron. NEMSA filed 11 objections with the NLRB. But, between Sept 2nd, the last day of voting, and Sept. 8th, you guys perceived no problem with the vote. There were no complaints from NEMSA whatsoever. It wasn't until after you realized the landslide you believed you had in the bag turned out to be your nightmare. So, when you had no complaints for 6 days about the vote itself, why 5 of the 11 objections against the NLRB? The only problem is you didn't get the votes.

The answer is simple: you are a sore loser. It's like playing a board game with my 4 year old. If she doesn't get the roll she wants, she changes the roll of the dice to fit her needs so she wins.

The only support you are getting here is from the two other NEMSA die-hards.

cctbone · Member

The campaign of IAEP vs. NEMSA is over. The election is over. We are all in this together regardless of what name we call our union. I post this and all my posts only as another staunch pro-union, pro-worker advocate as obviously all of us are here.

I am so pleased that the issue of IEAP's finances is repeatedly coming up because I agree that IAEP dues structure is inadequate and a glaring weakness. Our local will need more money. I once again propose that we maintain our current dues and not lower them to $32.80 with all the excess going back to our local. There are many good ideas regarding how to appropriate the money under "Bylaw Proposals" and I won't repeat anymore things than I already have in those previous posts.

We have to succeed together. We have to find solutions together. We have to work together regardless of history. I endorse the themes of "Unity" and "Strength Through Service".

Lee Siegel

Clear_my_side · Senior Member

I too am sorry to copy and paste and answer to your questions, Old Rhino, about how IAEP finanically is sound..... but I think it also got lost in the lengthety of the previous thread.. so I hope this helps you out a bit since it was missed last time around.

sorry for jumping in a little late.. I worked last night and missed all the fun... darn it!

I just have a few questions for those that insist on the divide 'em and demoralize 'em tactic.. ie.the old rhino and MO and Vern.....

if IAEP wasn't financially able to survive.. why haven't they gone under before now? They've been representing EMS workers since 1992, which is..... a lot longer then NEMSA, obviously. They are willing to give you the financial projection of how and where they will and do spend the dues money.. something NEMSA has declined to do on a number of occasions. The fact that they are growing, only means that now there are more resources and clout to move forward with... how does growth = failure?

Also... IAEP... it does stand for International Association of EMT's and Paramedics.. I"m really getting tired of writing that since it's a well know fact what IAEP stands for.. but some seem to foget that it is an EMS only union. Proof? Do they represent anything other than EMS worker? No. All the members are EMT's and Paramedics, and for the most part, the national and local representatives are currently lisence holding PM's and EMT's or were in the not so distant past. The membership is made up entirely of EMS workers.. how is that not an EMS only Union?Are they a branch of the NAGE?Yes.. Does NAGE dictact what, where, how, when, etc., the IAEP govern's itself? No. Does NAGE have other branches that work in association of them? Yes. Do those other branches have anything to do with IAEP, how it is governed, how they get the job done, the contracts in place, the votes, etc.? No. IAEP is also affiliated with SEIU. Does SEIU dictate what, when, how, when the IAEP govern's itself, does buisness, etc? No. Why does IAEP have an affiliation at all with SEIU? because they wanted the protection of the AFL-CIO, and in order to do that, they had to affiliate with a union that already was protected by the AFL-CIO. Why did IAEP choose SEIU? because it is a healthcare union, and EMS is in healthcare, and an affliation with a healthcare union makes sense... they have an understanding that, different though all the branches of healthcare are, they rely on eachother, are all key working parts to making healthcare work, and can work together to accomplish their goals. Strength in numbers...Why didn't IAEP affiliate with AFL-CIO by themselves and bypass the SEIU? Because they can't. AFL-CIO, from my understanding, only allows so many unions to directly attach to them, and there wasn't any room at the time..... back in 1992. Can IAEP get the affiliation with the AFL-CIO by themselves now if they wanted to... I don't know, but I don't see how not working along side the largest healthcare union in the country is a bad thing. They are sister unions and, indeed, do talk back and forth, assist each other, and back eachother up when it gets dirty. Sister unions don't mean that one union "rules" another so to speak. It means that they work together like the family that they are and abid by the house rules...What's wrong with that?

Also.. the idea that the IAEP expects the locals to pay for everything by themselves? Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.. As I have stated before.. I have worked under IAEP in the past as a memeber... so I'm speaking from experience here. The dues that you pay go into the pool of money that is accumulated by all the members of the IAEP. That money is used for arbitrations, grienvences, lawyers, paying the national reps so they can do the full job of representing you instead of having it be a part time job, so on and so forth. Of the dues money that you pay each month... $3 per a full time employee comes back into the local to do with as they please, not pay for what their dues pay for. The $3 per employee money can be used for scholarships, barbques, supporting a local politician, whatever the local decides is best for them. But the dues we pay should only go to our local you may say.. that would not behoove anyone in the local.. that's a lot of money, but not enough for all the crap that AMR likes to toss out there and needs to go higher up. By pooling the money, it goes a lot farther and gets a lot more done for a lot more people. True, a protion of the dues that you help pay could possibly help pay for an IAEP members arbitration in.... say... Texas, but the money that the employee's paying into the pool as their own dues has high potential of coming back to assisting you and your local should the need arise. That's the beauty of working together, together goals are accomplished and obsticles overcome, and the power and back up is there to get you through the ugly times.

"That is why other IAEP locals tell me stories of how the cell phones get turned off all the time and that their local is always flat broke." I just talked to the President of Local 187... yesterday as a matter of fact, and he said nothing of this statement being true. If you have proof of the UNION not paying their UNION cell phone bills, prove it. I find a statement like that hard to believe otherwise. Show me the bills and the notification of the union cell phone being turned off because the union bill has not been paid.. and I'll believe you then.. but I won't believe you on hearsay. If the people of whom you say are complaining because they don't pay their own personal cell phone bills because they feel that the union should be paying for them..... I can't agrue if people don't want to pay their own bills. Why should IAEP pay for someone to talk to their friend who lives in Colorado for an hour on their personal cell phone... I'm sure that if they gave the IAEP an itemized document showing them the calls that they've made on behalf of the union, pretaining to union buisness.. then yes IAEP should be paying for those calls.... ONLY. Not the whole of their personal cell phone bills.

As I've said before, there is never going to be a situation where 100% of the people involved are going to like 100% of everything.. there's even people who don't like Disneyland.. if you can believe THAT.. my Dad's one of them. So to say that you've talked to people who don't like their union.. I have no doubt that you have....But since this is a democratic nation, majority rules, and the majority of the IAEP members like their union.. that's why it's still in place. The majority of the people did not like SEIU.... and they are no longer in place... although their contract in still in place being effected by IAEP until that contract runs out and is renegotiated under the IAEP.. that's what the people wanted, to keep their contract but move forward with an EMS only union. Also, the majority of the people didn't want NEMSA.. so they don't even exist, except in a few small pockets with a membership of 80, which is good for them! I don't know why they are consentrating all this effort into a bargaining unit that doesn't even want them.. they should be consentrating on their own members.. but.. I'm getting off track here... apologies.....

I hope this clears up some of the issues and concerns that have been posed under this topic. I'm sure I missed some of the issues since this is a long post and I wasn't available to banter last night <errrr>, so... apologies again! Have a great day and continue with the healing process and getting this union off the ground and moving. It's up to the members to make it what they want. Don't be discouraged by the few that continue to attempt to keep the NEMSA game playing and belittlement alive, and mooooooooooooooooooove oooooooooonnnnnnn.................

snake911 · Veteran Member

Why is it that the NEMSA folks were so ****ed during the campaigning that 250 had been stealing our money for years and giving nothing back but now all of a sudden 250 was spending $1.2 million a year on us? They were taking $1.2 million a year. I dont think we were getting much of it back in representation. Yes we will have $86K a year to do what we want with as a local. How much do you propose we need? Our full time field reps and their expenses are not paid out of that fund. The lawyers fees are not paid out of that fund. And from what I have heard we were never paid lost time for contract work with 250 anyways so are we expecting to suddenly start paying our members full times salarys to negotiate the contract? That would be nice but its not how we negotiated the "best contract in the country" last time. It was done out of the goodness of people hearts who were willing to give their time and energy for a good cause. SO perhaps once every five years we have to tell our loved ones that some of our PTO is going to insure that every year for the next 5 years we can have a good wage and nice vacations. Oh well. People give of their time freely for noble causes everyday and expect nothing in return. You dont have to get paid for everything you do in life. Some things are done because they need to be. I would rather have a contract team motivated by getting good paychecks for all the workers than motivated by a paycheck for themselves only.

This is a good topic for our leaders (whoever they are at this time) what is the break down of money for our local each month and what are the expected expenses? A simple projection budget would clear up these questions and let a few people get on to the next thing they need to complain about.

Brad

snake911 · Veteran Member

Sorry I jumped the gun. The post above my last one explains what our local money is used for. And Rhino, Nobody intentionally buried your finances post. I was playing a prank on Nate and it may have caused your post to get moved. Im sorry that my jesting caused you some undue duress. I am truly sorry for threatening your rightful place on the front page.

Brad

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

Rod, Allow me to answer your post

Again Aaron, obviously you have no intention of letting the members make up their own minds. They voted, you don't like the turn-out, so you have no intention of honoring their decision.

Rod, Honoring the decision has nothing to do with my post...I’m addressing a fact that I see with IAEP, Rod. What’s wrong Rod, nobody allowed to say anything negative about your precious IAEP

Let's see how NEMSA is doing financially Aaron. Why won't you answer that question Aaron. You want everyone to support your union, which needs to prove its stability. Out with it, how's it going over there? Let's see your financial situation. You won't, because it will clearly show the ruins you're in. Well Rod, NEMSA is not representing us are they. IAEP has been forced on us by a shady backroom deal and then they lied to people to make them vote for them. My post deals with the situation we are in, it has nothing to do with NEMSA. You guys are never going to build a better union because you don’t want to hear anything negative

I've got another question for you Aaron. NEMSA filed 11 objections with the NLRB. But, between Sept 2nd, the last day of voting, and Sept. 8th, you guys perceived no problem with the vote. There were no complaints from NEMSA whatsoever. It wasn't until after you realized the landslide you believed you had in the bag turned out to be your nightmare. So, when you had no complaints for 6 days about the vote itself, why 5 of the 11 objections against the NLRB? The only problem is you didn't get the votes. Rod, again you are being ridiculous. First why would anyone file objections before the vote out come is known. It would be a pretty big waste of time and money to file them if you won. As for when they where finally filed. The NLRB gives you 10 days to file, you take that time to write your objections and gather your evidence

The answer is simple: you are a sore loser. It's like playing a board game with my 4 year old. If she doesn't get the roll she wants, she changes the roll of the dice to fit her needs so she wins. So Rod, let me get this straight if anyone questions IAEP or brings up anything that will make IAEP look bad, they are just NEMSA supporters that are sore losers or 4 year olds. Well then why even ask anyone how they want to run IAEP, if they question how something is going to work they are just called names....That sound like a great objective way to build you glorious new local.

The only support you are getting here is from the two other NEMSA die-hards. I’m not looking for your support Rod, I’m stating a fact as I see it that I feel is not going to work under IAEP. I will admit that I hope we have a re-vote and some of the things I say here will give people something to think about before they blindly believe IAEP’s B.S.. But also, Rod, I want all of you IAEP faithful to be clearly understanding of the disaster you maybe head us all towards. I think I’ve picked what our locals number should be, its very fitting......IAEP Local 10-55

Clear_my_side · Senior Member

Another example that you can't please everybody everytime.

Noone ever said that not liking IAEP was a crime, but the constant unwillingness to see things from "the other side".. it's tedious.... and time consuming. Obviously your mind is never going to change.. and it's really not anyones place to change it to be honest, but it is your place to support your coworkers in their choice of union rather than continue the name calling and ranting and raving that you carry on with throughout every post that you leave.

You like NEMSA and you think that they were the way to go... for you. And that's fine. Difference of opinion is what makes the ride of life more interesting, but the vote has taken place. The likelyhood that a re-vote will take place is slim to none. Push all you want, scream all you want, and make all the noise that you want.. but the fact remains that the vote has taken place, the people have spoken, and you can either accept it or not. (although apparently not). When SEIU lost the San Mateo medics to NEMSA, they didnt' demand a recount, revote, nor sink to the level of name calling and foot stamping.. and to be honest, it's the most noble thing they've ever done for EMS. They, at least, had the decency to realize that.. the people didn't want them and felt that going a different way was best. Now NEMSA has lost a vote.. albeit a rather large vote.. and can't give the same respect to the members who didn't want them. Why is that? In what way has the NEMSA supporters proven that NEMSA is the way to go? Not by their actions surrounding the vote, that's for sure. I was on the fence until I saw the NEMSA team acutally at work, and it was a disgusting disgrace to everything that I hold dear in this profession. They are not the people that I want to represent me in contract negotiations, nor any other forum.. and to re-enforce that belief, when the topic of unions comes up amongst my coworkers, I tell them all the reasons that I feel that NEMSA is not the way to go.. just as you probably told everyone and anyone who would listen how wonderful NEMSA would be if they came in... Once again.. differences of opinion......

In the end, Old Rhino, I'm sorry you feel like your voice wasn't loud enough to convince people the first time around.. but demanding that your coworkers go through this.... cr*p for lack of better words.. again.. it's just plain selfish. Everyone is sick and tired of it all, even myself. The only reason why I continue to pipe in is because the misquoted facts that some people continue to put out there.. that and it's a good release from all the studying.. heh heh. Give it a rest for a while before you give yourself a coronary.. you're going to blow yourself up and then where will we all be?? Take a deep breath and.. see what happens. I know you think this is the end of the world.. but believe me... it's not. Instead of putting all this energy into negativity, why don't you gear it towards moving forward with your coworkers? I'm sure you'll like yourself better in the end, and not alienate yourself from the majority of your peers.

Just a thought.

cctbone · Member

Aaron,

How do you propose we maximize our financial situation? What are your ideas?

(other than a revote........)

Listen, we need ideas and solutions. What should we do NOW?

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

To be perfectly honest with you I dont know how this can be fixed....IAEP made a campaign promise of lower dues....They are going to have to live with that now......I dont believe the IAEP system works and its not going to work .....Several people on this forum just want to bury their heads in the sand and say when confronted with the difficult questions that its just NEMSA campaign rhetoric.....I wish them luck because their folly is going to effect us all.....Being that I dont believe the IAEP system can work for us, I have no suggestions on how to improve it.....I only pray that the ones who have made this decision for us to be a part of IAEP know what they are doing...Since they felt IAEP was so right for us then they should have no problems fixing it and making it work...But, I will not stop pointing out IAEP's short comings and weakness because I feel my co-workers deserve to know what has been decided for them and what the future holds....Good luck with IAEP local 10-55....Oh and for all of you that just hold on to the fact that you feel we can just vote IAEP out in '06 if they perform poorly....Well that well may be true but by then we will lost yet another chance to improve our contract and we will be waiting another 3-5 years before we can do anything about it....And, if IAEP does fail what do you suggest, we go back to 250.....250 is the reason this whole decert started to begin with......I think you know the direction I feel we need to go.....But hey thats just NEMSA rhetoric right? I would start asking all the IAEP supporters how they plan to fix the situation they have placed us in.

Forfend · Senior Member

Yikes!

We're broke and we're never going to succeed!

What should we do? I feel so helpless and duped.

Somebody solve this crisis!

Are we even IAEP?

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Bury our heads in the sand Aaron? We are the ones attempting to build this union. As far as me being ridiculous, you obviously didn't read your own objections. Maybe you should before commenting. Objections were filed against the NLRB for the way they ran the vote itself. Again, no perceived problems between Sept 2nd and Sept 8th, until you realized you didn't, and still don't, get the votes you needed.

Answer the question Aaron. Are we going to see the financial health of NEMSA? Here you are making financial observations about our local, in obvious attempts to discredit us. I want to see the financial health of the organization that you would have us be embroiled in. Let's see how you are doing Aaron. It goes straight to your credibility and stability.

-- Edited by Paramaniac at 22:18, 2004-10-03

Forfend · Senior Member

Oh No!

I'm not burying my head in the sand. My head is gone. I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off! I'm Chicken Little! "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Clear_my_side · Senior Member

This is a great show.. chickens without heads.. people with their heads in the sand.. doesn't the sand get up your nose?? empty change purses hanging from belts.. not to mention the guys running around with boneheads and bricks between their ears.. you don't see THAT everyday! humm... what a hoot!

Paramaniac · Senior Member

But also, Rod, I want all of you IAEP faithful to be clearly understanding of the disaster you maybe head us all towards

I am one person Aaron, one person who is doing his absolute best to make this work. This is what the members voted on Aaron. We, the people of this forum, and others as well, are dedicated to our work family. You also wrote you believed NAGE is setting me up to be the fall guy. I don't understand that as well. I am going to forge on, and do the best I can. That's all I can do. But I sure as hell am not going to give it a half-as$ed effort, then never know what we could have been capable of. The other people here supporting this union feel the same way. We are not going to approach this with a defeatist attitude when we can really make something great here. Why don't you try jumping on board, since it is going to affect you negatively if we can't bring our entire family together.

-- Edited by Paramaniac at 22:48, 2004-10-03

Play with My Money · Senior Member

It won't work....waahhhhhh.

Whatever happened to all the pioneering analogies? Only your ideas will work? I detect narcissism.

Vernon Thymes · Senior Member

Is that you talking or is it the 5 million?

You have lost all credibility after I found out about that little manuver.

Your screen name fits. Of course you want to move on it gives you a chance to hide what you are really about.

Take the money and run huh Erin? Good. SEIU will be so proud

Play with My Money · Senior Member

" There's a lot of money to be made here", Dave Turner.

Take the money and run was inspired by this fine NEMSA concept.

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

So. If you didn’t vote for IAEP and feel that their system will fail you are narcissistic.....Sounds to me that you may be suffering from a touch of megalomania.

Play with My Money · Senior Member

What?!???

Vernon Thymes · Senior Member

Stellar response

Back peddle all you want Erin.

Run with that money Erin

Play with My Money · Senior Member

I have no idea what to say to that except, peck, peck, peck, the chicken pecks the other chicken as it back peddles its way into the corner.

Oh my! How do you get 5 million dollars out of a paramedic? I say good luck to 'em cause you know you can't squeeze blood from a turnip. Or better yet, you can't have a Christmas goose when you are surrounded by is pecking chickens.

What lawsuit? You guys are such silly chickens.

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Aaron,

I would like to know how NEMSA is doing financially. I can't imagine it being very good. You have very few members, very little money coming in, you no longer drive the Durango, it apparently now belongs to Carlos Osorio.

Again, financial security goes directly to the stability of NEMSA. Let's see it Aaron. How is NEMSA doing? (By the way, while you fellas continue to berate Erin, this question has been asked three times).

Thank you,

Rod Billings, Shop Steward, IAEP

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

NEMSA’s finances are fine Thanks for asking Rod.....I’m not going into detail with you about them because you would not believe me anyway.......NEMSA is not the subject at hand right now Rod, its IAEP....You remember them....The group you decided for all of us that we needed to be represented by.....The group that keeps sending out mailers saying they won the vote, when no winner has been declared by the NLRB yet.

Katmedic · Member

Did AMR fire me and not tell me..check my certs.. I haven't gotten these mailers Old Rhino is talking about...whats up with that..i've been full time in CoCo for almost 10 yrs..I believe im on the mail list, could it be im wrong..better check into it!

Kat

Forfend · Senior Member

Financial work must be done by the individual.

How about we all sit at home on our computers and trade stocks on the internet for the sake of keeping IAEP solvent. We could take care of our retirement at the same time. No need to negotiate a pension. We can do it all by ourselves. Yes, I bring solutions.

How du ya like me now, Michelle???

See ya out there.............

Mean Medic

Paramaniac · Senior Member

Aaron,

Let's see you whip that calculator out again and do the exact same thing you did here. I think it would be incredibly detrimental to NEMSA if you were to show your current situation, which is exactly why you won't.

It doesn't surprise me one bit that you can't figure out how we are going to do this on $90,000/year, when that's probably less than what Torren planned just for himself in salary. But of course, we were never privy to NEMSA's finances, nor apparently are we now. In fact, we were never privy to any part of NEMSA's structure whatsoever, it was totally forced on all of us. Well, that changes now. Anybody that wants to be part of our development team can do so. All you have to do is show the initiative to simply show up and constructively participate.

However, in the interest of the members, I believe they should have the say if there is going to be any increase in dues. Yes, I agree with Lee that finances may get tight. I would like to see us have a bit more money to do the things we will need to do to properly represent our members. I believe we are going to have some initial costs directly attributed to starting up our local that is going to make it even tighter.

But these are problems, that if we work together, can solve.

Thank you,

Rod Billings, Shop Steward, IAEP, CoCo

Old Rhino · Veteran Member

Ok Rod, lets play magic calculator......Now before we begin I have to say a few things. First, all the numbers I’m using are imaginary. Actual salaries are to be set by the executive board at such time as the bargaining unit comes on board. I went buck wild on the numbers. I’m almost positive the numbers would be lower in real life....There are several governing factors in setting this figures. Second, I have not factored in here how much other bargaining units such as Oak Valley and San Mateo would contribute to these salaries, bringing our payment burden down. Third, I’m not as well connected to NEMSA as you seem to think I am. I cant quote chapter and verse on all things financial with them.....You asked me to play calculator so here goes;

First a recap of IAEP; IAEP collects $852,480 from us per year in dues they give you back $86,400 roughly 10% to run the local. $766,080 goes up the chain for affiliation fees

Now lets look at what is possible with NEMSA:

NEMSA collects the same amount of dues as L250 is now, $1,200,000

Here is where that money is going to go;

(Again these numbers are not actual, they are to be set by the executive board i.e. you)

President of NEMSA Salary $100,000 per year

Field Reps 3@ $80,000 per year or $240,000

Legal/Lawyer fees $300,000 per year(this includes arbitrations)

Total $640,000

That leaves: $560,000 per year for the local to use, That number will increase when you factor in the other barging units contributions to the above expenses. Oak Valley, San Mateo etc, etc etc

Now which do you think has a better chance of helping the employees; IAEP’s $86,400 per year or NEMSA’s $560,000

NEMSA is compelled by law as a non profit company to spend all of that money on you in the way of services or return it to you at the end of the year. IAEP is not compelled by any laws as to what they do with your money. They can keep and spend it anyway they want.

How do you want to run your unit with $560,000 or $86,400.....All IAEP/NAGE/SEIU is, is a money making machine unfortunately you don’t get to benefit from it.