I've been shut down two times while trying to respond to Alis calling me a twit in regards to my posting to Torren's post regarding the termination of stewards. Wow, I shut the whole forum down! Or, at least I was informed I was out of service for three hours for site maintenance.
It seems there is an issue of free speech around here. But, its not on this forum.
My initial posting was to cite 250's Constitution and Bylaws Article 16 (Charges,Trials and Appeals) of which a number of stewards and ex-reps have violated several. So, I simply pointed out, does this ruling overide our by-laws, as on numerous occasions when I've contacted governmental labor agencies about issues ,once they found out I was in a union they directed me to deal with the problem with my union. So, I pointed out, that since Torren states an association and a union are one and the same, I expect similar responses at these labor agencies and hope he'll have enough money left over for all the attorney fees to deal with so many disputes.
So, then I was called a twit, by Alis, and basically told I was incompetent for not spending time in other countries. Plus, she thinks I've attacked the integrity of her and other stewards.
Medic One, also thinks I need education on free speech. He believes this supreme court ruling applies here. I'm starting to question the competence of their attorney.
What I fail to see is how 250's actions are a violation of the supreme courts ruling on free speech within unions. If Alis is stating that all of her stewards are NEMSA supporters, and that many members would be left without a steward to continue their grievances and investigations (much like what happened when Torren and Tim left without notice, plus Oak Valley that Tim was negotiating for up until Feb. 25 when he resigned without notice and their contract expired on April 8th- ooh, surprise, NEMSA saved the day) why wouldn't the stewards simply contact the union reps to take over, or ask management for an extension pending the vote for labor representation. After all, AMR asked CO Co County to do the same in their RFP process, I'm sure they'd agree that's the right thing to do.
If this is about free speech, the issue is centered around locked 250 union boards that NEMSA stewards hold the keys to, and are not granting access to. Whose denying free speech?
Open the damn doors and be done with it. Free speech belongs on the union board. Or, are they so afraid that their members are "sheeples" as WC Union Guy thinks them.
There were more responses to Alis' insults, in that I am not attacking her integrity, but I am open to misconduct charges. Especially since police were called to block lawful access of representatives from SEIU to members of SEIU to share information.
Other thoughts I tried to post:
When has "250/IAEP" tried to coerce us to break the law?
Where is this page 123 Alis cites, the 250 By-Laws go to page 52.
"Up to this point," Alis, means this point in time.
Are volunteers terminated? What harm comes to an uncompensated volunteer when they are no longer recognized for their services? It appears to be a violation of a personal nature rather than the good and welfare of the union body. If these volunteers that no longer have their status care about their fellow employees, they will immediately document and brief the representatives and remaining stewards of the needs in their respective jurisdictions.
If a steward is potentially guilty of misconduct, is it a violation of free speech within a union to address potential or alleged misconduct?
First of all the scheduled maintenance has been announced for days. Nobody is censoring you. Second, By cutting of the stewards 250 is punishing the members who need them. The stewards have the working relationship with management and the knowledge of the contract. They where elected by the members to stand for them. 250 has no right to dictate who the members want.Third, nobody is censoring 250 come and look at that the bulletin boards, you’ll see 250 has equal postings. They just don’t want to see any NEMSA stuff. So who is blocking free speak here.
I hope that is true, however Travis told me that 250 postings he put up were consistently being torn down. What concerns me greatly: when in the history of ambulance organizing have the police been called to remove representatives of a labor organization that attempted to communicate with employees and potential members of the labor group?
Excuse my computer/forum illiteracy. I did not check webmasters schedule. But it was odd that it failed two times at posting, and then shut down. Why would maintenance be scheduled at 2200hrs?
The issue of the police coming is in AMR's court. They called them not NEMSA or any NEMSA supporter. AMR took their actions based on what happened in SCCO. IAEP started dicking with a supervisor when he told them to leave. AMR has the right to ask either side (250/IAEP Or NEMSA)to leave if they are disruptive. Obviously the sup felt his actions where necessary. He reported to Management and they took action to prevent further problems. That's why the other events with P.D. took place. So stop trying to make it sound as if NEMSA had anything to do with it. If you want to keep making that accusation give some proof to back it up.
This is what concerns me. Torren has complete unobstructed access. I was not in Santa Clara, though I was told from someone there that Torren thanked the supervisor for calling the police. I was at Al Co, it was absolutely not disruptive. We were in the parking lot, just being available for to share information for those who cared to hear it.
The pot calling the kettle black I see. Local 250 had removed my posts amongst others from their forums. Did you say anything to them about that? You must have known. Complaints had been posted about their bias forums from the start. Many stewards have tkaen it upon themselves to infom their cowokers of the truth. If Local 250 thinks that they can intimidate, manipulate, of suppress us then they will be proven wrong. You fail to mentions that these Local 250 reps were harassing people, smoking near oxygen tanks, or preventing people from getting ambulances ready for service in an efficient manner. You also fail to mention that they stacked a decision affecting the core. Nice to see that five people can make the decision for 2400!!!!!!!! But you take it upon yourself to see only what you want to see. Comment on only what you want to comment, failing to see the irony in you own words. Propaganda is your best defense. If this is what your walls are made of then they will fall.
How did anyone obstruct or hinder any of those people from getting to an ambulance that day?? I keep asking this question...
Did any of you NEMSA supporters see the video camera??
It was brought to the operation that day to dispell exactly what I thought it would... your constant fibbin' about what happend that day, and other days. The way you all have been posting these outlandish stories keeps me laughing. And my sense of "Blown out of proportion" would be the norm with NEMSA was understated.
But I do think it is funny how The MENSA mobile just sets up BBQ and T-Shirt shop whenever, and where ever it wants... And the IAEP and 250 people get the police called on them. Again I have video of the times I have been to the ops centers giving out information, and have video taped the conduct of the people there at that time. Nothing warranted the police being called in Sac that day. Besides the fact that we didnt make an appointment? Where in your contract does it state that the union needs to make an appointment to go meet with members?
It is very obvious that NEMSA has preferential treatment when it comes to access to the members. Why so late I see in your NEMSA 5 most frequently asked questions box? Cuz we cant be on AMR property long enough to talk to people with out management making a unfair labor practice.
Anyway.. I wonder whom that local president was that asked NEMSA for a job? I think that person must have been joking, because you cant pay bills with a NEMSA pen, T-Shirt or NEMSA Burgers!
Jay
"If I dont win this election I am finished" - NEMSA Leader
__________________
Life is what happens while you are making other plans...
This is not that day. This is many days. Local 250 would position themselves where the crews were either going home or or coming on duty. We don't have time to be solicited before or after a long day. NEMSA gets permission, positions themselves out of the way or in a classroom, and lets crews approach them not the other way around. You take the time of oncoming crews by distracting them from going into service you are affecting operations. Simple as that. But that is ok because I'm a "fibbin" as you like to say. Burnt once twice shy buddy. I would like to see all of the dates you filmed, and for you to post the date this whole decert with Local 250 started. Alot of people were ****ed before IAEP came around. Do you expect to have people welcome you with open arms when SEIU has bombarded us with threats, given us half truths, called our homes, come to our homes (Uninvited), and manipulated a decision that affects the core to bring you into the picture. Five people decided for 2400 people in 19 counties. You contacted only 250 supporters to manipulate a decision. Your a Local 187 President and even you fail to see all the bad blood that has been created and wonder why the hostility. You even start your subcontracting with SEIU Local 250 by taking part of and condoning a manipulation for a vote in a system that you claim is democratic. Now we start getting a new round of mailers and propaganda from you to add to my pile. Maybe if SEIU did not **** off the crews and AMR you might be a little more welcome. You have made your bed and have to sleep in it and wonder why it is so uncomfortable. Keep on laughing see you on vote day.
quote: Originally posted by: Old Rhino "First of all the scheduled maintenance has been announced for days. Nobody is censoring you. Second, By cutting of the stewards 250 is punishing the members who need them. The stewards have the working relationship with management and the knowledge of the contract. They where elected by the members to stand for them. 250 has no right to dictate who the members want.Third, nobody is censoring 250 come and look at that the bulletin boards, you’ll see 250 has equal postings. They just don’t want to see any NEMSA stuff. So who is blocking free speak here."
The scheduled maintenance had been the top post on the NEMSA site for some time. There was no need to check the webmasters log. Just thought I would clear that up. And cutting the shop stewards hasnt affected my county at all. The 250 chief steward who is also a NEMSA supporter has been holding onto grievances for some time waiting for this vote to finish before choosing to battle managment. I'm assuming this is the same in most counties. If NEMSA is so sure they are going to win then these folks will be stewards again in no time and free to persure the grievances of the members once again.
And Shadow Fax (great name by the way) stop recycling my one liners form other posts. Its rather irritating to have my A material reused by other people.
__________________
"It's time to awake, get up and fight, fight for mankind, live for a cause" The Pilfers
Grievances occur at the beginning and end if shift. Investigations occur at the beginning and end of shift. Are you saying you don't handle important member issues at those times? If something so critical as who will be representing the labor group is on the table, and an impending vote occurring, is that not worth at least a conversation at the start of, or the end of a shift?
One on one for labor issues is one thing. Mobing staff that are trying to get their bus up is another. In San Mateo County on multiple occasions Local 250 staff were snapped by crews because they were following them as they were trying to go into service. Are you under the impression that how Local 250 has conducted themselves in mass is just like how every day opperations functions were before this decert process had started? This does not include the phone calls (up to nine a day), mailings, going to our homes, faxes, videos, and general propaganda. Sorry but there are 3 to 7 more people in the mix in Burlingame that were not there before. Aggressive Local 250 politics = frustration
Of course I'm not saying that 250 is conducting themselves like they did before the de-cert. That would be inane. What Ipointed out is that there is an extremely important election at hand, and obviously 250 did not feel they were effectively getting their message out. I'm weary of arguing the merits of that with NEMSA supporters. I think it has some validity, as I pointed out, Torren had a classroom. For whatever reasons, 250 did not in certain locations.
Good Lord, I hate phone-banking. I can see the worth of reminding people to vote. The mailings, faxes, videos... people who want to know more, can. So what. 250 couldn't win for losing on many accounts. If they didn't put forth an effort they'd be dissed for never giving a hoot or putting out $$ for EMS, if they do they're dissed for spending money. So they're spending money on info, are you going to see that money any other way? One way or another, 250 will be out of the picture this week, in spite of the "propaganda". Propaganda has been used on both sides. It's an election. It's the way our democracy operates to win public opinion for wars/elections. Its up to the voter to dig out truth and weigh the merits of each side and what is important to them and what isn't. The conflict raises the important issues.
Aggressive actions by NEMSA supporters has also = frustration. I suppose it would be easier for you if 250 had just curled up in a ball and sucked their thumb. Is that why you're sorry there are more people in the mix? The value of the conflict has been to produce a more in depth analysis of what we are doing here, thus making an opportunity for those who will take it ,to make an educated choice and own the consequences.
One last post concerning your earlier post, Shadowfax, about how IAEP was presented to the members at large. I have posted this already on the NEMSA Forum, and I'm tired of this "propaganda" you guys keep spouting.
Again, whent the coup on 250 was presented on Feb. 25, was everyone invited, or only people they thought would be receptive to it and carry out the plan? Tim Bonifay told me there was debate as to whether or not to invite me. Was Shasta there? They never even heard about the petitions until they had already been submitted. Same goes for other counties. It was a numbers game to win, not a choice to be shared by all. Certainly large counties will make the decision for smaller counties.
250 conducted two conference call with 25 members from all the counties where they had anyone who would listen to them. These people democratically decided to present this option to the members at large. You know as well as me its hard to get people to an actual meeting, especially on short notice. Hence, not so many there. No one is shoving anything down your throat. The vote by the members this week will show a yae or nay to the IAEP option. How does that leave you with no choice? If people don't like it, or what they perceive to be 250 antics, they can vote NEMSA or neither. But first, you have to get the info out so people know what is on the table. You seem to resist that by calling it all propaganda.
-- Edited by Play with My Money at 12:16, 2004-09-02
