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Post Info TOPIC: Fears and Concerns reiterated


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Fears and Concerns reiterated


I was having a conversation today with a coworker and the topic came up as to why I don't think that NEMSA is the way to go. Now, to start with before I actually start, I know I'm about to be abused from all sides from the NEMSA folks... but in anycase... here I go...



Why do I think that IAEP is the better candidate for me.



To begin with, there is the proven financial backing and history of the IAEP. They've been around since 1992, and are still going strong.. and growing at that. NEMSA on the other hand.. has been around for less than a year, and refuses to show proof of their financial projection. I don't like that. I'd like to know what's going on with my money.. before it's spent. I'm not saying it's a bad thing that NEMSA is young, just that it is so young that it brings much doubt and worry to my mind.



Secondly, I've worked as a member of IAEP in the past on two occaions. I know that the Local is only as strong as it's eboard, and those that are interested in being a part of the eboard in this divsion.. I feel that they will be the best of the best that we've come to expect from our coworkers here.  And believe me, you'd be as suprised as I am to know who is interested in leading us into the next life of unionhood in this division.. not whom you would expect at all. As of now, I still don't know how NEMSA works as those that are actual members have yet given anyone a real idea of how it's going.. and no, I don't expect to hear from them as according to the NEMSA supporters, they have no reason to tell us how they like their new union... which is a shame since in other divisions/counties there are still potential members who'd like to know this kind of stuff before they have to make a decision.



Next, noone here is at this moment entertaining the idea that they will "make a lot of money if this thing takes off". Those that are supporting the IAEP are doing so purely on the facts and notions that they are doing right by them and their fellow coworkers, and EMS in general if I may go that far. We sincerly believe this is the way to go in the direction of a union and share that idea with others, and that idea has been well received by more of our coworkers then we even dared to hope for. At least they are considering it with an open mind......



Furthermore.. I firmly believe that there should be a checks and balances to keep all parties in good and honest working order. IAEP has affiliations and bylaws that they must abide by, which means that there is always something/one to fall back on and a place to go higher up be it for negotiations, strikes, arbitrations, etc and rules that are in place for them as well as all they are afilliated with....just like the union makes sure that AMR stays on the straight and narrow. With NEMSA, there is noone to make sure that they aren't cheating us are not doing their job. I'm not saying they would, but they answer to noone.. and I don't like that. I don't believe that NEMSA should be the king that all the subjects/members must answer to, and like it no matter what. What I'm saying is, there's no checks and balances inside NEMSA.. except those that are on it's up and up board... and to me that's not good enough. They've said over and over again that they want afilliations with noone.. which means they have no notion to have a checks and balance system in place. Perhaps they feel that the members themselves will be the checks and balance system, but let's be honest.. 99% of employees are too busy doing their job and living their lives.. that they take it for granted that the Union will remain honest and true to them and their beliefs.



Moreover, I feel that the NEMSA up and ups have not proven to me that they are the union to go with. They are passionate about their cause, which I respect wholeheartedly. But they are mean, uncouth, and continually disrespectful to my coworkers, career, and beliefs.. (not to mention the disabled.. but that's a totally different post)... or at least those who voice themselves here on the message board. I commend NEMSA for it's forward thinking, and hope for the best for them. I hope they do accomplish all that they promise and dream.. but I don't feel that, for me, it's a safe place to be, on the bottom at the start of something like this. It's not like it's a community baseball team that is asking for my support.. it's an organization that's asking me to take a chance with my career and livelyhood. I appreciate that others feel that it's a great opportunity, but.. I'd rather stand back and see what they can really accomplish, and take a look at this option again in the future.. when they've had time to work out the kinks, play in the mud of negotiations and drama's that are associated with starting a new endeavor. I'd just like to see what they can really do on their own instead of taking me along on a ride that has the potential of driving me right off a cliff.



This is a brief look into the working of my and many others here in North Hollywood's concerns and internal debates. There is of course pages and pages worth that are more then worthy of mention, but this, I think, hits on the formost of topics of discussion. I hope that you read it with an open mind and reach the end of it before the bashing and slamming begins...



 



Thanks for your continued patronage to the IAEP site by the way!



Amy


 


originally posted 10/11/04



-- Edited by Clear_my_side at 15:20, 2004-10-17

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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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Why I believe IAEP is the more financially sound and logical choice


 


 


sorry for jumping in a little late.. I worked last night and missed all the fun... darn it!



I just have a few questions for those that insist on the divide 'em and demoralize 'em tactic.. ie.the old rhino and MO and Vern.....



if IAEP wasn't financially able to survive.. why haven't they gone under before now? They've been representing EMS workers since 1992, which is..... a lot longer then NEMSA, obviously. They are willing to give you the financial projection of how and where they will and do spend the dues money.. something NEMSA has declined to do on a number of occasions. The fact that they are growing, only means that now there are more resources and clout to move forward with... how does growth = failure? 



Also... IAEP... it does stand for International Association of EMT's and Paramedics.. I"m really getting tired of writing that since it's a well know fact what IAEP stands for.. but some seem to foget that it is an EMS only union. Proof? Do they represent anything other than EMS worker? No. All the members are EMT's and Paramedics, and for the most part, the national and local representatives are currently lisence holding PM's and EMT's or were in the not so distant past. The membership is made up entirely of EMS workers.. how is that not an EMS only Union?Are they a branch of the NAGE?Yes.. Does NAGE dictact what, where, how, when, etc., the IAEP govern's itself? No. Does NAGE have other branches that work in association of them? Yes. Do those other branches have anything to do with IAEP, how it is governed, how they get the job done, the contracts in place, the votes, etc.? No. IAEP is also affiliated with SEIU. Does SEIU dictate what, when, how, when the IAEP govern's itself, does buisness, etc? No. Why does IAEP have an affiliation at all with SEIU? because they wanted the protection of the AFL-CIO, and in order to do that, they had to affiliate with a union that already was protected by the AFL-CIO. Why did IAEP choose SEIU? because it is a healthcare union, and EMS is in healthcare, and an affliation with a healthcare union makes sense... they have an understanding that, different though all the branches of healthcare are, they rely on eachother, are all key working parts to making healthcare work, and can work together to accomplish their goals.  Strength in numbers...Why didn't IAEP affiliate with AFL-CIO by themselves and bypass the SEIU? Because they can't. AFL-CIO, from my understanding, only allows so many unions to directly attach to them, and there wasn't any room at the time..... back in 1992. Can IAEP get the affiliation with the AFL-CIO by themselves now if they wanted to... I don't know, but I don't see how not working along side the largest healthcare union in the country is a bad thing. They are sister unions and, indeed, do talk back and forth, assist each other, and back eachother up when it gets dirty. Sister unions don't mean that one union "rules" another so to speak. It means that they work together like the family that they are and abid by the house rules...What's wrong with that?



Also.. the idea that the IAEP expects the locals to pay for everything by themselves? Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong.. As I have stated before.. I have worked under IAEP in the past as a memeber... so I'm speaking from experience here. The dues that you pay go into the pool of money that is accumulated by all the members of the IAEP. That money is used for arbitrations, grienvences, lawyers, paying the national reps so they can do the full job of representing you instead of having it be a part time job, so on and so forth. Of the dues money that you pay each month... $3 per a full time employee comes back into the local to do with as they please, not pay for what their dues pay for. The $3 per employee money can be used for scholarships, barbques, supporting a local politician, whatever the local decides is best for them. But the dues we pay should only go to our local you may say.. that would not behoove anyone in the local.. that's a lot of money, but not enough for all the crap that AMR likes to toss out there and needs to go higher up. By pooling the money, it goes a lot farther and gets a lot more done for a lot more people. True, a protion of the dues that you help pay could possibly help pay for an IAEP members arbitration in.... say... Texas, but the money that the employee's paying into the pool as their own dues has high potential of coming back to assisting you and your local should the need arise. That's the beauty of working together, together goals are accomplished and obsticles overcome, and the power and back up is there to get you through the ugly times.



"That is why other IAEP locals tell me stories of how the cell phones get turned off all the time and that their local is always flat broke." I just talked to the President of Local 187... yesterday as a matter of fact, and he said nothing of this statement being true. If you have proof of the UNION not paying their UNION cell phone bills, prove it. I find a statement like that hard to believe otherwise. Show me the bills and the notification of the union cell phone being turned off because the union bill has not been paid.. and I'll believe you then.. but I won't believe you on hearsay. If the people of whom you say are complaining because they don't pay their own personal cell phone bills because they feel that the union should be paying for them..... I can't agrue if people don't want to pay their own bills. Why should IAEP pay for someone to talk to their friend who lives in Colorado for an hour on their personal cell phone... I'm sure that if they gave the IAEP an itemized document showing them the calls that they've made on behalf of the union, pretaining to union buisness.. then yes IAEP should be paying for those calls.... ONLY. Not the whole of their personal cell phone bills. 



As I've said before, there is never going to be a situation where 100% of the people involved are going to like 100% of everything.. there's even people who don't like Disneyland.. if you can believe THAT.. my Dad's one of them. So to say that you've talked to people who don't like their union.. I have no doubt that you have....But since this is a democratic nation, majority rules, and the majority of the IAEP members like their union.. that's why it's still in place. The majority of the people did not like SEIU.... and they are no longer in place... although their contract in still in place being effected by IAEP until that contract runs out and is renegotiated under the IAEP.. that's what the people wanted, to keep their contract but move forward with an EMS only union. Also, the majority of the people didn't want NEMSA.. so they don't even exist, except in a few small pockets with a membership of 80, which is good for them! I don't know why they are consentrating all this effort into a bargaining unit that doesn't even want them.. they should be consentrating on their own members.. but.. I'm getting off track here... apologies.....



I hope this clears up some of the issues and concerns that have been posed under this topic. I'm sure I missed some of the issues since this is a long post and I wasn't available to banter last night <errrr>, so... apologies again! Have a great day and continue with the healing process and getting this union off the ground and moving. It's up to the members to make it what they want. Don't be discouraged by the few that continue to attempt to keep the NEMSA game playing and belittlement alive, and mooooooooooooooooooove oooooooooonnnnnnn.................



 originally posted 10/02/04



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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Vernon Thymes response to how the San Mateo/Oak Valley folks enjoy being a part of NEMSA


 


I could care less what those people are doing.  What I want to know is who gave the 2 people the right to decide for me that IAEP was my union?  Don't even start with this majority crud, because IAEP was not on the ballot and 250 did not receive a majority.  Get off of it already and address the real issues.  How did IAEP get here? Why were two people allowed to decide for the rest of us?



This is at the core of the issue, not what NEMSA members are doing.  I doubt they are reading this pathetic message board and are thankful that they have an established union that they voted on quite decisively.  82% in San Mateo, 100% in Oak Valley and don't forget the one vote IAEP/250 got at first responder.  So far NEMSA is 3 - 0 against 250/IAEP and are about to be 4 - 0 when the run off happens.



More questions and point made by moi...


Sssooooooo.... just to clear this up...........NEMSA wins the votes in San Mateo and Oak Valley, uncontested... aaaaannnnnnnnnnddddd.... First Responder votes "no union" and it passes as the no union ballot count was 1 ballot more then the count for NEMSA... aaaaannnnnnnddddd... IAEP is the recognized winning union by AMR for the NorCal contract, and unofficial winner per the NLRB, pending the 38 contested votes by NEMSA, which even if they are all found to be in favor of NESMA, still doesn't give them the higher number count of votes in the end......and NEMSA wants a revote which... let's face it.. is not likely to happen no matter how hard you cry............ and even if it does.. it would be a loooooong time from now.. the people will have seen how NEMSA runs it's buisness (assuming anyone from San Mateo or Oak Valley is allowed to express their opinions)..... and enjoyed the continuation of their current contract and perhaps have had a renegotiation of a new contract under their belt with IAEP........mmmm... but.. then you never know with people do you.....



 


I'm sorry.. I just don't see how 1+1=4 wins for NEMSA.. it's awfully presumptuous to count your chickens before they hatch don't you think.... no pun intended by the way....in believing that you will win the challenged votes.. not to mention arrogant. I'm seeing a trend of spinning the facts, since you obviously believe that we all can't add.......



brilliant response that alliviated all fears and confusion made by Vernon Thymes...


Wrong 4-0



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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Since I work in Contra Costa, I have never found myself in a situation where I have to explain my support for IAEP. I feel so spoiled. I can only imagine the frustration you must feel, having to explain yourself to the people you work with on a daily basis. You are the people who will make this union strong. Thanks for spelling it out for the few NEMSA supporters remaining.

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Matt Fluke EMT-P Contra Costa


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the complete disregard of employee's concerns and worries based on their seniority...


Autum:



 


 If you want to play with the big boys you need to be able to stand on your own two feet. Take one for the team. You and your friend don't scare me. I have nothing to loose. You see when the vote happens the members are voting for NEMSA or SEIU. Who ever wins wins. If SEIU wins. You loose. If NEMSA AMR looses. I still where i been for the past 15 years. 116 employees ahead of you on the senority list. I get my shift and you , well get what's left. I sure hope AMR doesn't cut unit hours because that means. OOOHHHHH someone will loose their job. Don't worry you can always go to other IAEP divison of AMR. Since your love IAEP so much.


originally posted by COEMS



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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still waiting for this issue to be addressed......


 


 


"Tim was in charge of negotiations with Oak Valley's contract set to expire April 8th. Tim resigned February 25th. San Mateo was interesting on many accounts. The stewards changed their position from 250 to nemsa three weeks before the vote, with gaining fire jobs being an over-riding issue." under the topic "IAEP



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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our local NEMSA spokesperson goes back on his word... shaking my faith in the validity and credibility of both him and NEMSA


 


 


Sorry Carlos.. but I gotta do this since the NEMSA folks haven't been corrected by you by now.. I'll just take the reins in my own hand.



On Sept. 27, Carlos sent me this via email "NEMSA has ask me to come and serve on the board if they are elected" Old Rhino.. I and many others like me take that to mean that Carlos was offered a job with NEMSA, and not only do we believe that, but Carlos has confirmed it many times in person, and on the message boards of NEMSA (when there was one) and this one.



On October 6, Carlos sent me this via email "Several members have been asking members to sign a petition asking me to with drawl the NEMSA petition that I filed on behalf of the members. I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition." And he also stated in the meeting on Sept. 31, in front of about 8 employees, and in front of IAEP reps, that he would indeed pull the decert paperwork out of filing if we got the signatures. Although when it came up at the NEMSA meeting on Oct 7, he was loudly silent, and that look that Torren gave him when I told him I had it in writing that that is was Carlos stated... I truely felt sorry for Carlos.. it's like the look you get from your parents right before they really give you what for.



It should also be noted that Carlos has stated on numerous occasions that he does not support the IAEP, nor does he support the members decision if they choose IAEP, and wants nothing to do with IAEP. He has stated that he supports the members, not their decision. To which I wholeheartedly understand, he gains nothing with IAEP that he would would gain if NEMSA came in.



He will absolutley have the chance to verify the signatures when we have the alloted number, and I think he will be sincerly suprised at some of the names that have signed... I know I am.



We are not trying to "buffalo" anyone into doing anything. It is explained to the members that by signing the petition they are agreeing that they don't want to vote, that they want to move right into the service agreement with IAEP, that if they don't believe that this is the way to go, to NOT sign it, if they have more questions or want to think on it, DON'T sign it.. but people listen for 5 minutes of what the IAEP has to offer and they sign. We don't even have to get into a comparison between the two unions, they are tired of this and more occasions than I can count have stated " this NEMSA cr*p is bullsh*t and Carlos is just trying to sell us up the river so he can get more money" That's not a misquote. I've heard it on more lips then I thought possible. To be honest, I didn't think people would be receptive to this petition thing, but they are! I thought that Carlos had this division and NEMSA in the bag.. but apparently not from what the people have been saying.



I sincerly hope that Carlos does the right thing by the people when we get the signatures, and not the right thing by Torren. I agree that a vote is the best way to go, but the people are speaking and they don't want a vote. They state that they feel as though they were mislead into signing the original petition sent around by Carlos, and that this is a chance to remedy that. They don't want this thing dragged out any longer and want to get on with it... and when asked to to a debate between IAEP and NEMSA, Torren said that Thanksgiving is better for his timeline.. Sweat that! We want this done NOW, not according to Torren's schedule, NOW!



As for "lying their rears off".. all one has to do is simply state the bylaws of NEMSA when the question of dues come's up. If the by-laws are lies.. I don't know what to tell you. You pick out what you think is most damning to IAEP ( ie Section 9 of the service agreement) and state that it is illegal.. but then convenlently forget to mention that it comes after Section 8, which makes it legal... it's not supposed to be read as each section standing alone, it is to be read as a whole.. much like your by-laws.. which by the way... your addendum states something to the effect that our dues will not go up from what they are now..... people here think we pay too much as it is, and with IAEP, the dues go down..... so........ it is cheaper per a member to pay dues into IAEP then NEMSA........



By the way the cost for your lawyer, NEMSA itself has stated that it costs $225 an hour for him to work on their behalf, a fact that came into question on many an occasion on both message boards and up until your recent post, has not been denied by NEMSA. Show me where it costs less to have Tim Talbot on your side, and I'll believe you, but until that time, I'm just going to have to go with what you've not denied until now, and I feel that people have a right to know where their money is going... Which by the way.. where is the finanical projections that you promised Autumn at the meeting Oct. 7? She specifically asked for them to be given to her on the following day, to which Torren stated that he didn't have access or some such nonsense to those files while he was in LA... doesn't he have a computer/laptop, I know the hotels have courtesy fax machines.........



In anycase... whether or not NEMSA or Carlos chooses to honor the promise made by Carlos, is up to them. Carlos said that if we get the signatures he will personally tell Torren that it's over and that the members have spoken.. of course that was during a conversation between 4 of us at the main, and since I don't have it in writing, I don't expect it to be honored.. but he did give "his word".... let's see how strong that word is now......



and the responses.....


Yes. Since IAEP has continue to lie to the members and personal attack me, I will not pull the petition. I also had 75 signature wanting to decert 250. Now I will let the vote decide who the members want.


COEMS


per Old Rhino.. it's ok to lie of you feel that you've been lied to first.....


If Carlos thought it would be best for the members to take a vote, then why did he offer to pull the decert if IAEP got 76 signatures?? If you don't believe me, I can copy and paste his email here. All the IAEP stated, was that the people who signed didn't even want a vote to happen, that they just wanted the service agreement between the IAEP and SEIU to happen. Not too many people trust Carlos down there, as much as he might not like to hear that. I’m saying Carlos does not have to honor that offer because IAEP is lying to members.


 



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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Torren's other "buisness".....


 


THE TRUTH BEHIND TORREN’S MOTIVES…



All along, Torren Colcord has been telling us that he formed NEMSA for the benefits of EMS workers. A lot of people believed him. I know I did……….Well, after checking with the California Secretary of State’s office, guess what I learned…



 



TORREN HAS FORMED HIS OWN EMS MERCHANDISING AND EMS SUPPLY COMPANY. THAT’S RIGHT!!!!!!!!



On May 11, 2004, Torren Colcord formed RTK Enterprises, a LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY FOR THE PURPOSE OF SELLING EMS MERCHANDISE and EMS SUPPLIES.



Who is Torren intending on selling EMS supplies to?



EMS COMPANIES PERHAPS????????????????



ISN’T THAT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST????



WHY DIDN’T TORREN TELL ANYONE ABOUT THIS?



AND IF HE DID, I WANT TO KNOW WHO WAS IN ON IT!!!!!!!!!!



Again…don’t take my word for it. Click here and see for yourself.





  • NOTE: NOTE TORREN’S SIGNATURE IN SECTION 9 OF THE DOCUMENT!!!!!!!


THE FACTS DON’T LIE, BUT I THINK TORREN DOES…………..


originally posted by valley emt


But it's ok in the eyes of the NEMSA folks...



You cannot possibly expect Torren to not feed or house his family can you? The fact that he has a company or companies, does it automatically mean he is "cheating you out of your money"? And so what? Do you honestly believe that with no income he can pay bills? He deserves an income just like you!


posted by NEMSA lover


Ok business geneous tell me exactly why there is a problem?  You are full of accusations and innuendo but you have nothing to back up your statements.  Tell me why there is a problem and then back it up


originally posted by Medic One  


(my concern is that... if Torren needs a little extra money this month.. by having this "side buisness" he can deem the spending of members union dues into this "buisness" as being justified under the need of the NEMSA office needing supplies... and whose pocket does that money go straight into.... yet another example of my concern of NEMSA and the lack of checks and balances....)





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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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And with that.. I'm done with the trip down memory lane.. for the time being...


 


I'm sorry to hear that you have had such a hard time out there with IAEP and your representation. You do know that you, the members, have complete control over who your eboard is, don't you? I know that you do seeing as how you are a shop steward, but maybe the other members don't. Also, you, and others from your Local, are always talking about how your contract is "substandard".. but you seem to forget that you the members voted on that contract before it was negotiated. I've been a member of the IAEP and in our Local, as is the practice with IAEP nation wide, the eboard and stewards ASK the members in writing what they, the members, feel is the most important thing(s) that they want negotiated in the next contract. The people tell them what they want, and they do their best to get it. If you think that your contract is less then what you feel it should be, you should be ousting your president, not the union. The union is there for when negotiations halt, grienences move into arbitration, and the such, not necissarily to negotiate your contract. That is why you have a goverment type body at the Local level. They know how to deal with your division on a ground basis, the Union (IAEP) does not. True that the pres and eboard are to be the representatives of your union, but they are reps that you pick from your pool of employees. And boy, I can tell you that there are some extrEEEEEEmly substandard presidents out there. So you have my most hearfelt sympathy in that regard. I just would like to toss out there that before you do something as drastic as oust your union, benifits, and affiliations that go along with it, why don't you throw out your pres and/or eboard and see if that takes care of your problem. From what I've heard, you do have a crappy contract, but.. get in touch with someone like Matt Levy who is your manager of oranization ( I think that is his title...)  for that side of the country, and see if you can make something happen. It just seems hasty to jump that far without KNOWING you will land on your feet in the end. NEMSA is a good idea, but...... I'm not sure if they can follow through with all that they are promising and hoping to accomplish. Even the most desired dreams don't see fruitation. I'm sure that they might succeed in the future, but give them time to make some secure foundation. Personally, I think they are biting off more then they can chew before they know what they are getting into. Torren does have a background as a rep of a very strong and large union, but he's never done something like this before and I'd hate to see all these people lose everything if is does fail. Although, for the record, I do believe that his heart is in the right place. But haven't you ever known someone who has the biggest heart in the world get taken advantage of by everyone around them???  One Last thought.. if you don't like your pres and you are willing to give it a try with ousting him, why don't you run for the pres postition, you seem to have a good feel for what you want and what your coworkers want.... fight for them and see what you can do..... You know you will have their full support. If it doesn't work, at least you, and your coworkers, will have the peace of mind to know that you did everything you could to make it work.. and you can always go with NEMSA after. Also... I know you don't like Matt Levy over there and I completely agree with your reasons for sceptisism.. but he IS very knowledgable and can help you with this or get you in contact with the right people. Don't let your pride and stubborness get it the way of bettering your situtation... especially when it could be fixable.


origanally posted by.. yours truely



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10


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Clear my throat are you able to make a point with writing a book about. Its painful to have to read through your long babbling stupidity. Now on top of that your re-posting your stupidity. Try having a clue about what you are talking about before you post.



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aahhh hhhhheeeemmmmm<sips from glass of water>.... I do write long posts don't I? Well, I guess it's because unlike many of the NEMSA zealots, when I answer a question/post I make sure that I touch on all the points and concerns that are being asked instead of glossing over or simply ignoring what might be a concern that is the most important to that person.. also.. after having written/answered posts in this fashion.. it's rare that the issues are bought up again on that thread.....


By the way.. do you know what "reiterate" means?? Hence the title of this thread.....



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"I have given my word to Amy, Aultum that if they get over 75 signatures that I will with drawl my petition. " Carlos 10/6 "I will not pull the petition. " Carlos 10/10
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